The AR Pistol is either a shitty rifle or a lousy pistol.

  1. The question or topic here is why you would want to use SBR/AR pistol vs a PCC or pistol caliber pistol, so although this is absolutely 100% correct, it is not exactly useful info given what the OP is concerned about

  2. This is not necessarily true. The purpose is to have a high-capacity, semiautomatic weapon chambered in a centerfire rifle calibre that is more readily concealable/maneuverable than a full-sized rifle would be. A brace only gives you a larger point of body contact than the end of a buffer tube would (unless you are actually using a brace for it’s originally stated purpose for development).

  3. I mean you can poke a knife through drywall easily (and even punch through it, so I’m told), I’m not sure why anyone thinks they would be good at stopping bullets.

  4. I heard 5.56mm reduces the human body to its constituent atoms and 9mm blows all of the organs out the butthole.

  5. There's a home being built on my daily drive to work. The walls are literally 2x4 framing, with styrofoam panels in between, drywall on the inside, and a coat of stucco on the outside. Granted, I don't think "will it stop bullets?" has ever been something most contractors/architects/builders have ever felt the need to ask, but no, most modern homes are basically made out of marshmallow fluff.

  6. On top of this, the external and terminal ballistics of 5.56 being anemic from short barrels is highly exaggerated. The biggest differences will happen at a few hundred yards, not immediately out of the barrel. This is in the same category as the thought that shotgun pellets become confetti past 20 yards, or that you can't miss with a shotgun.

  7. I think the reason drywall penetration gets brought up is because on a round like .223/5.56 which is very susceptible to tumbling from almost any collision. Once the bullet makes contact with anything it begins tumbling and loses speed and energy very quickly compared to other rounds. This is even moreso the case with a hollowpoint or soft point round which will dump the majority of its energy upon the first impact. A round like 9mm will be somewhat less affected by these factors due to having a higher mass, and .00 buck will be significantly less affected by this as it’s fired from a smoothbore.

  8. This is the only correct answer. Anyone telling you that over penetration isn’t an issue is lying to themselves AND you. There isn’t a modern self defense ammunition that won’t go through several layers of common building materials.

  9. I think the idea is can it still go through drywall after going through a person. 556 will go through a person and drywall and another person. A 9mm hollow point or .22 usually stays in the person and if it manages to get through it might not have enough residual energy to get through drywall anymore. Stray bullets will definitely go through drywall though. Look at tests with ballistics gel in front of the drywall.

  10. I agree, and SBRs are great for home defense provided you don't go to ridiculous levels and build a 7.5" 223 pistol, although 7.5" in .300 BLK would be fine. That or a Bullpup 16" 223 rifle are the best home defense options in terms of not over penetrating, length of pull, and terminal performance of the round. As others have noted, putting a suppressor on a Bullpup or SBR style AR means you don't end up with a ridiculously long musket and let's you pie corners and maneuver in stairwells a bit more easily.

  11. I just looked at pictures for the first time. My reaction: that's just a small rifle. Never would I see that gun and call it a pistol lol

  12. It's supposed to just be handier in tight spaces like indoors or in and out of vehicles. The other benefit is that if you put a suppressor on it doesn't become musket length. Also, if you have a carry permit, it's legally a pistol so you can have more legal flexibility. It's just a tool and if it fits your need then go for it. Also, a 12.5" barrel isn't losing a significant amount of velocity and you still maintain fragmentation/expansion velocity for most loads out to 200 yards. A few years ago a dude did a study with his 10.5", 11.5", 12.5" and 14.5" AR's with velocities and drop and posted his results on forum. There might be 7.5" data in there but you lose so much going 7.5" that a different caliber would be a better tool.

  13. Essentially the question is what needs does an AR with barrel less than 16” fulfill. I don’t think this is about whether it’s braced or has a stock, or whether it’s .300blk or .223/5.56. 1. Compared to a longer barrel centerfire rifle, it won’t be much good at longer ranges. 2 compared to a 9mm or .45 handgun, it will be preferable at 20-200 yards, both in terms of terminal ballistics and in ease of hitting the point of aim (and for that matter, a PCC would outperform the handgun at those ranges to).

  14. Mine’s an 11.5” with linear comp, and I like it. Although the main reason I settled on 11.5”, rather than 10.3” or 12.5”, is that 11.5” is just enough pipe to deliver 55gr pills at over 2200fps at 200yds. Permanent wound channel at maximum practical range FTW. I live in the ‘burbs, so there’s no realistic scenario where I’d wanna engage beyond 200, but if I do, I’ve got carbines and rifles for that.

  15. Where I live in CA you can’t buy a stripped AR lower and turn it in to a pistol because of how state law works. Obviously this upset me.

  16. So you went the 80% route for your pistol? How did that process go? Any hiccups/roadblocks with your paperwork or approval process?

  17. So... this is complicated. An AR pistol is anything with a barrel shorter than 16" and a pistol brace "stock." Anything between 14.5" (sticking to common barrel lengths) all the way down to 7.5" is still a pistol. That means ballistics are going to vary widely, from M4 ballistics down to basically the equivalent of a PCC. The purpose of an AR pistol is to have an SBR without paying a tax stamp. Their purpose, then, is to be compact and maneuverable in smaller spaces and lighter overall, just like the original M4 and Mk18s. The AR pistol is perfectly adequate for home defense and indoor shooting provided you make a couple additions. First and most important is going to be a suppressor. This is going to handle the biggest issue of the short barrel, that being flash, concussion, and noise. The others are fairly obvious and apply to all other HD weapons as well - an optic and weaponlight being chief among them.

  18. I was with you until you said subsonic 300 blk doesn't lose "much in ballistics" compared to 5.56. Velocity is one the major factors behind the wounding capability differences between rifle and pistol cartridges. Going subsonic makes 300 blk gun a PCC. It still looks like a rifle cartridge, but it's not.

  19. The real distinction is home defense. When you think about a bump in the night scenario it's not the best option. However if you I ly have one gun it's a fantastic option.

  20. that may be true but they have no right to tell us how long or short our barrel should be, pistol brace be damned

  21. Many professionals, both law enforcement and military, use short ARs so that tells me they are definitely not useless.

  22. Only caveat: The 5.56 round wasn't designed to do anything. Tumbling and explosive fragmentation above 3000 FPS was just a discovered attribute of the round.

  23. Gives you a lot of firepower and the ability to pierce soft armor in a more compact package. Also lets you attach a brace, so you can use it one-handed if a disability is preventing you from using it with both hands.

  24. Keep in mind that very, very few people wear level II armor anymore, and level IIIa armor may be enough to stop a reduced velocity 5.56 ammunition. Tests I've seen indicate that 5.56 55gr ammp will be moving about 3200fps from a 16" barrel, 2800fps from a 10.5" barrel, and 2450frps from a 7.5" barrel. That translates to 1250 ft-lbs, 960 ft-lbs, and 740 ft-lbs. A 240gr FMJ .44 Mag bullet moving at 1300fps generates 960 ft-lbs of kinetic energy, and a level IIIa vest--soft armor--will stop that. So it may stop 5.56 ball ammo from an AR pistol.

  25. There has to be some legitimacy to them because the us military uses 14” sbrs for certain things. ar pistols and ar sbrs are nearly the same from the buffer tube thread forward.

  26. You are confused. M193 was designed for a 20" barrel, but you have cartridges like XM556SBCT3 and Hornady GMX TAP 70 gr that is designed for 10.3. XM556FBIT3M I believe was also designed around the 10.3" barrel.

  27. You don't need anything longer than like 11.5" to shoot out to 100 yards. For home defense, you're looking at short range weapons.

  28. .300 blackout was essentially made for short barrel AR's. 5.56 was designed around a 20" rifle and reaches it maximum velocity through around a 24" barrel. If you want a short barrel AR in 5.56, you'll need sacrificing a lot of velocity. Do some research on 300blk

  29. So with over penetration through walls, anything that is appropriate defensive ammo will go through walls. Some does to a lesser extent. With that said you need to evaluate everywhere you could take a shot and what would be on the other side. For instance, if I wake up at night and grab the shotgun I'm taking a position at the top of the stair and can cover the stairs while I check kids' rooms. From the top of the stairs, I'll shoot down and shot will go into my front porch. Behind my house is woods so I can shoot front to back ok but in front is a road with houses across the street. Shooting forward I have to be careful. I'll still use my shotgun because I'm well trained and versed on it. I'm also very skilled and trained with an AR and my handguns as well.

  30. Main justification for building my shorty AR9 was as a shtf firearm, my thoughts were that 9mm is extremely common as are glock mags (even though I don't owna glock). If shit gets wild and crazy and options dwindle I wanted to have the ar9 to perform the same function as my ar15, giving myself options.

  31. you do realize people like to shoot different things for FUN, right? it doesn't have to make sense to you or "serve a purpose"

  32. it sounds like you think its a binary choice? A 7.5" AR pistol and an 11.5" AR pistol shoot as differently from one another as a 16" rifle and a 20" rifle do. There's a ton of utility in having a shorter overall length, even if it means sacrificing some terminal ballistics. At shorter ranges, like the confined spaces of your home, those additional terminal ballistics are not necessary and a more compact and maneuverable weapon may be advantageous. It makes adding a suppressing feel like less of a compromise as welll- going from an 11.5" barrel to 16-18" with a suppressor is less of a sacrifice than going from 16" to 22" is.

  33. The Jeep cj7 is either a terrible car or a nearly useless pickup. It's a car but without the handling, comfort, or power and a truck with no cargo capacity and very limited towing capacity. There is no practical use for something like that.

  34. Here in Florida there are lots of public hunting land where only pistols are allowed. An AR pistol is much more accurate and powerful so just a small niche besides the SBR loophole

  35. Seems like a PCC with hollowpoint rounds strikes a good balance here in terms of risk of penetration, muzzle flash, power and maneuverability. Sure, 5.56 might do better against armor, or at range. But you're talking home defense here. If your house is being broken into by someone wearing armor, it sounds like a lot of other things have gone wrong.

  36. An AR pistol is probably one of the most versatile firearm options you can own. It's compact enough for indoors, able to run both pistol and rifle calibers depending on the build, and has a range that can rival anything other than long range builds.

  37. Ballistically, I doubt any regular pistol comes close to an AR pistol in 5.56 with a 10” barrel, and pistol cartridges generally have more penetration through building material than 5.56.

  38. For me it’s a range toy. I have an AR Pistol in 9mm and it serves its purpose very well. I’d use it for HD if my 365 ever failed me.

  39. An AR pistol is helping to get around silly SBR laws. the reason you would want a shorter barrel, or "pistol" may vary. IE you have less storage space, tight corners, you want a flashbang and a gun rolled into one (jk), or a list of other things. 14.5" is about the shortest you want to go without sacrificing TOO much. In my eyes I'd just go with the extra 1.5" and avoid the legal mess that comes with a pistol/sbr.

  40. The point of the AR pistol is to have an SBR without a tax stamp, or to be able to use it while waiting on the tax stamp. Yeah, the longer range ballistics are going to be worse than a 16 inch or longer barrel, but that generally won’t matter much. A compact carbine with a 10-12 inch barrel is just really handy for working in close spaces. As for barrier penetration, the choice of projectile will matter a lot. Low weight soft tip ammo is probably fine, but for home defense a pcc would still get the job done with a lot less concussive effects than 5.56 from a short barrel.

  41. It depends on the caliber you're going for. God and Eugene Stoner got together and made the AR platform perform optimally with a 20 inch barrel. Anything less than that is suboptimal ballistic performance for that specific bullet. What's really important here is the caliber, not whether or not you call it a rifle or a pistol. And every bullet has an optimal barrel length. Rifles need more barrel to burn all the powder and accelerate the bullet up to it's optimal speed. Pistol calibers are designed for short barrels, so you usually get better ballistic performance out of them using a PCC than your average sub compact handgun

  42. IMO, broadly, rifle cartridges need a certain minimum barrel length to achieve full potential. Slower powders keep pressures lower but need more time to develop velocity. As an example, there is at least one pistol chambered for .50 BMG. It's terrible. The majority of the powder charge is expelled, unburnt, behind the bullet. It's not as if it won't do some damage, of course, but any number of pistol calibers would do as well in a more sensible way.

  43. I have a friend who has one. He just likes it because he thinks it’s cool, and he likes to have fun with it. For home defense and carry, he has a couple of “normal” pistols, and has said the only reason he’d grab his AR for home defense is if he can’t get to one of his 9s. Personally, I think they’re a little silly, kind of like all the dress up stuff people do to their computers, but it’s not my money and people can do what they want. If someone asks my personal preference, I’ll tell them, but otherwise there’s no need to argue about it. The vast, vast majority of people either fall down or run away if they get shot, so most anything will work (though I personally wouldn’t go less powerful than a 380.)

  44. The responses you got on your other thread were garbage. There is a reason why AR pistol is so popular. There is a reason why the military uses carbine length weapons indoors. Pistol caliber carbines were invented so that troops wouldn't have to use their rifle cartridges to remotely detonate IEDs.

  45. Let’s take a great assault rifle and change it to a pistol. Any product that compromise’s the design is, by definition, shitty.

  46. An AR "pistol" is a designation that came out of the NFA's rules for what constitutes a "rifle" vs "pistol."

  47. You also neglected the part where the majority of the commenters from Reddit really don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground.

  48. "The AR pistol is specifically designed for rap videos" is a quote I've heard from an instructor. I'm not kidding.

  49. It's not the platform, it's 30 rounds. 30 rounds of 5.56, 9mm, .45, or other reasonable defensive caliber ends every conversation.

  50. My hk416 pistol is my main rifle caliber firearm. I have a 1-6 on it and it’s been capable out to 500 yards. Terminal effect isn’t bad with 855a1 out to 300 ish. A full length rifle is more than I need for most things so why have the extra barrel?

  51. AR stockless short barrel is only a pistol due to idiotic government rules just like a bee is a fish in California because fish is a "wild fish, mollusk, crustacean, invertebrate, amphibian, or part, spawn, or ovum of any of those animals"

  52. AR pistols are just SBRs with artificial restrictions due to laws. In the absence of NFA restrictions, no one would have them, they’d just make them proper short barrel rifles

  53. A PCC could be an AR Pistol. Caliber doesn’t come in to play at all with the definition of an AR pistol. Literally an AR pistol is just an AR that has a pistol brace and is a shorter barrel length than a rifle and does not contain a vertical fire grip.

  54. 10.3 inch AR’s have been getting used by US soldiers for CQB for the better part of the last decade. Yes they’ll go through multiple layers of drywall but so will literally anything because drywall is just paper & compressed chalk. What .223 is good at is depositing almost all or all of its energy in the intended target as it collides with the incompressible fluids of the human body & aggressively fragments & yaws

  55. It’s an absolutely fantastic way of turning money into noise; perhaps better than a Riverside, MO fireworks stand.

  56. Camp A has some valid points. 5.56 doesn’t like being fired out of ridiculously short barrels. It basically tanks the ballistics that the round is known for, so you’re shooting expensive rifle ammo out of a super loud gun to get performance not much better than a pistol caliber carbine with a similar barrel which is also gonna be more pleasant to shoot. Asking for opinions in the gun crowd is always gonna be like this. There are people who think you can’t defend yourself without a $5k rifle, 10,000 hours of training, and another $5k plate carrier (and a helmet and comms for some reason?). You are dangerously close to summoning

  57. it’s certainly NOT a pistol. that’s just a loophole in the laws. look at the damn thing, it’s a rifle. so yes, use it for rifle stuff and get an actual pistol. .223 is actually pretty good at penetration, it WILL go through many layers of drywall. if we’re talking pure drywall 10+ layers as the stuffs not very tough

  58. If you're using an AR pistol in a defensive environment (at least in civilian use), it's quite good. Easy to do follow up shots, great effectiveness, and easy to maneuver in your house.

  59. Well, for one, as others have mentioned. 223/5.56 aren't the only options for caliber. If you go with a pistol caliber, you could get more accuracy than with a pistol. Another advantage is having more rails for attachments than a typical pistol.

  60. My 12.5 aero "pistol" begs to differ. Make your pistol an SBR and treat it as a rifle. Fuck the atf. Don’t go less than 12.5 because the round won’t have the velocity to penetrate and also won’t fragment in a soft target

  61. I think you have explained as best as anyone else. I think looking at the design and ballistics of 5.56 should tell you it's meant for mid range shooting. You could get an AR10 in .308 and pistol it and use as home defense but its just not what the round was designed for. I think It comes down to the round used. 300blk would be a better round in pistol configuration because that's what it was designed for or any pistol caliber round.

  62. Using a 308 in home defense seems like a recipe for potential disaster. Way too powerful a round could blow a hole right into your neighbors house.

  63. I have a 300 BLK AR pistol - I don’t see the point of a 556…. For me, it is about subs with suppressor. Can shoot it without ears if needed. So that makes it good for the by the bed home defense stuff. Also, portable and powerful. I can fit it easily in a backpack and know I have great firepower if I run into a bad bear in the woods, or bad assholes wherever. Plus, damn fun to shoot. But I don’t think I would have gotten one if it wasn’t so great to shoot suppressed.

  64. I like my ar pistol so that I can keep it inside my vehicle using my cpl so if shit goes down traveling in state I have a fair amount of defensive firepower. I also opted to get the longest ar pistol with an adjustable brace for improved ballistics.

  65. An 7.5 barrel is more than accurate enough for short to 100yd needs. Soft tip and hollow point ammo from short barrels provide very adequate ballistics for wound cavity and not over penetrating.

  66. For run of the mill actual home defense (as in wake up from a dead sleep, oh fuck someone is breaking in) I'll go with a shotgun all day. Much less chance of over penetration, loud as shit, easy to aim. Fewer rounds than a pistol or rifle unfortunately, but unless you're facing off against a hit squad, it should be enough.

  67. For HD, ballistics is in the 1' to 7 yrd range.... train as such and do not worry about the rest - initially. So, really, anything that puts rounds on a small target at 5 yrds.... that you have trained with, is your best HD firearm.

  68. I've built a few micro ARs recently 5 inch barrels. Have sb tactical pdw brace on one the others have blades. I have even put together a 7.5 inch 308. I consider that micro for the caliber. All are fun range toys. And for me that's enough. I hope to never use one in active and ongoing situation (see ukraine). Still, I can use each one for defense of self or family. I also have common 9mm pistols. My edc is an elite sc. My micro 300blk is the only AR that I keep out along with edc. I have range toys. I love em. Functionally, if aim is true I can use my AR as readily as edc. Apologies for rambling. Key points I built what I like/wanted. In emergency situation all go pewpew.

  69. Both mine (223 wylde n 300 aac) are full time suppressor hosts. Adding a 6” can to a 9.5 or 11.5” barrel vs a 16” barrel def makes a difference

  70. IMO I think it's so people can have fun and feel badass. Nothing wrong with that, I just grew up in Alaska and was raised to want more practicality out of my weapons. (I own an AR myself.) They nearly require an NFA and probably will. Again, IMO I'd just go for a lower powered standard pistol (bigger than .22), use hollow points, practice early and often including dry fire drills and/or spring cap dummy rounds, leave a small light on in each access room so they're silhouetted when you're approaching from the dark, and for God's sake secure it staged in a pistol safe. There will still be wall damage and pass throughs when you miss so try to fire away from bedrooms and other living areas. Use frangibles if you're really worried about it. You will still have muzzle flash, it's nearly unavoidable.

  71. Welcome to gun culture, where literally every tiny distinction between two functionally-identical weapons can be framed as a matter of life and death. And if it's a matter of life and death, there can be no room for compromise. Therefore, whatever folklore a person has picked up (generally somewhere between grandparents and YouTube) must be treated not only as truth, but as truth that your life depends on.

  72. To clarify, is the destination you all are making based solely on what is around the buffer tube or is it about the length of the barrel? I don’t think whether something has a brace or not is an indication that it is a crap setup, so it has to be about barrel length. If so, having a shorter barrel doesn’t make something shitty, because ammo plays an impenitent role and there are trade offs that come with it. 300 blackout was created for this very reason, where SOF was looking for a caliber that was more lethal than 9mm, could be fired from a shorter barrel suppressed and maintain its ballistics without issue. Additionally, the shorter barrel allows operators to run something that could be used easily in CQC and do so with a reduced weight.

  73. SBR and ar pistols are good for cqb. They're also effective outto 2-300 yards outdoors. If it'd blind or deafening you, it wouldn't be the preferred weapon for units doing room clearing. If you're worried about flash and sound, put a suppressor on it. Really, who are you going to listen to: a bunch of redditors, or spec ops and swat guys who actually use weapons with this barrel length in real world, room clearing settings?

  74. First of all, we're really conflating two topics here. "is the AR pistol good" and "Is the AR pistol good for home defense" these are two different topics.

  75. I think in a high stress home defense situation you're going to get better aim with an AR pistol than a handgun and more mobility in tight spaces than a long rifle.

  76. I prefer AK type pistols. For SURE not for home defense, more of a SHTF scenario because of their reliability, durability, and accuracy (they are accurate if you know what you’re doing). It is far too powerful to be my home defense because I live in an apartment, and it would put everyone there at risk. I keep it locked up. Home defense I choose Glock 17 with hollow points.

  77. The new hotness is 13.5" barrels, and 14.5" barrels. You're not losing too much velocity from 2-3 inches. The primary reason is to maneuver the "rifle" indoors easier, where shooting someone at near point blank range doesn't matter, and as for noise: 9/10 of these setups run a suppressor, and ear pro, plus another half a dozen homies with the same set up, clearing the house with you.

  78. The M-16/M-4 (therefore the AR-15) is great rifle considering what was designed for. It is light, simple, and easy to use. It is designed to be used in conjunction with other firearms. Throw in a few guys with an M24 and add a M249 to the mix and it’s great. It’s designed for guys to move quickly, cover distance, etc. and be supported by other heavier weapons. Lastly, it’s definitely a rifle. Thea whole SBR/pistol shit has gotten ridiculous.

  79. Not all AR pistols are created equally. I love my Sig P516. With a few modifications (optics, Ferfrans CQB Modular Muzzle Brake System) I like it better than the M4 I deployed with. It’s a bit heavy, but it’s top notch.

  80. I gotta question! Can I buy an AR pistol right now without having to do the ATF bullshit? With a Tax stamp, wait 300,000 days and all that?? I heard good ol Biden pushing a ban on the brace part but I wanted to get one before they made it illegal. If it isn’t already?? Thanks for the feedback!!!

  81. The way I feel the actual purpose of an AR pistol is a ploy by the gun industry to trick misinformed buyers into purchasing a subpar rifle pistol mutant that is cheap to produce. I see no real practical purpose for it. I would just get a high-end pistol for the price that some of those AR pistols are sold at. Something that shoots A 45 or .40 even a 9 mm +p are all practical for self-defense and come in a much more compact shooting platform. I would just get a separate rifle if you want to shoot a .556 or a .223, which may I say a 223 is a fine round a mini-14 is an excellent rifle and I would highly recommend it if you're looking for one. An AR pistol is just going to underperform, I would just stick with a rifle or a pistol not both.

  82. Okay, there are AR pistols (between 10 and 13.5), and there are actual AR pistols (like 7.5"). For the former, do you really believe 13.5" barrel has any significant difference than a 14.5" with pinned and welded muzzle? Yeah, 20" is definitely different, but that is a rifle, 16" is a carbine. For the latter, if you shoot 5.56 out of a 7.5" barrel you are literally shooting fireballs, so common sense does not apply.

  83. they are just a really fun range toy as far as I'm concerned. dumb as shit for HD unless you're running 300blk and a can and most people do not have money to shoot 300 often or get a can. I just like shooting fireballs while I'm running close range rifle drills. also you can get a 10.5 inch barrel and a brake and still get solid ballistics out of 5.56

  84. They're right that 5.56 has shit ballistics from a short barrel. These should be chambered in something more suitable for the size.

  85. It is a sub machine gun wannabe. Being a wannabe it is a lousy pistol and an even worse rifle unless you go bigger like 300 blackout and it is an ok pistol.

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